Excellency, diplomatic service is a difficult job, which requires diversified expertise, how do you view your diplomatic career, would you please tell us briefly about your professional career.
Foreign Service of a small country like Finland requires a high level of generalism, because the issues we deal with are so diverse. One has to know something about everything, and be able to find out information quickly on issues one doesn’t know yet. In the foreign services of large countries, it is often possible to specialize in one region or one language area, while this is rarely possible in Finland because there are not enough vacancies. We move from region to region while sometimes working in the headquarters on a variety of files.
My career in the Foreign Service started here in Islamabad, in 2002, when I was the intern of the Finnish Embassy here while still a university student. Twenty years later, in 2022, I came back to the place where my engagement with the Foreign Service had started. In the twenty years between, I served in Syria, Lebanon, Ethiopia, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Belgium, and of course various postings in Finland.
Excellency, could you please characterized the bilateral relations between Pakistan and Finland.
The bilateral relations of our countries are friendly and unproblematic. We are, however, quite different and far apart. Pakistan has a huge population while Finland has only 5 million people. Trade in particular could be increased quite a lot between our countries, as there is a lot of untapped potential.
Excellency, Finland is rich in culture, civilization, heritage and history, how the cultural civilization and heritage exchange could be enhanced between Finland and Pakistan.
I often say that Pakistan is where the origin of the Western civilization is located. The great story started from the Indus and then travelled West. Even many of the best-known fairy tales of Europe usually originated here, and came to Europe through the Arabs and Persians. Pakistan is located in a cultural crossroads where civilizations have come and gone for millennia. Compared with that, Finland is located in a remote Arctic corner where population was until recently scarce.
Cultural exchange happens when people find something attractive in another culture. These days, many fences are lower than ever. People in the opposite sides of the planet are watching Japanese anime, listening to American pop music, wearing European brands produced in South Asia, eating Italian or Indian food, reading a Scandinavian detective novel, playing a game designed in Finland with Pakistani programmers, and so on. For cultural exchange to be fruitful, there needs to be genuine interest from the population – the content needs to be interesting and attractive.
Excellency, what is the volume of bilateral trade between Pakistan and Finland, and how we could improve it.
Our bilateral trade is more modest than it could be. Finland is importing textiles and their raw materials from Pakistan while Pakistan is importing from Finland metal, pulp, paper, timber and machinery. Some major Finnish companies are present in Pakistan for quite some time already, for example Wärtsilä and Nokia. Small and medium enterprises have found partners for example in IT and textile sectors. In the last years, trade between our countries has plummeted regardless of reopening our embassy in 2022 after ten years of absence: the loss of trade is largely attributable to Pakistan’s economic crisis. Finnish companies are cautious of risks in the current economic situation, and waiting for a turn to better to feel more confident. Pakistan currently has a confidence problem. Improving economic sustainability and good governance would therefore be the best ways to improve our trade. As for Finland, we need to improve our competitiveness in emerging markets, as our products and services tend to be a bit on the pricey side.
We would like to know your opinion, and suggestions regarding good governance, democracy and human rights in Pakistan.
Pakistan faces persistent challenges in these fields. Corruption doesn’t just damage Pakistan’s economy and society – it is also a push factor for Western governments and businesses. While Pakistan’s democratic, federal and multi-party system has proven quite resilient through its history, it has also suffered from flaws that have ushered in political polarization and zero-sum game. As for human rights, one of the best indicators of the level of human rights in a country is how it treats its minorities. Improving these three aspects would make Pakistan more attractive, let alone a better place for its own citizens.
How can Pakistan cooperate with Finland on the issue related to global peace?
We can cooperate – and we do so – on the multilateral fora, especially the UN system. The EU and the OIC have, for example, had a lot of fruitful dialogue and exchanges on enhancing religious tolerance. We could also try to understand each other better on the sensitive and difficult challenges to peace that we face in our own respective neighbourhoods, by sharing views and information.
Please Excellency, advise us how we can start different projects on education, health, clean water, sanitation and sustainable cities?
The Finnish Embassy does not currently possess a project portfolio or funds for bilateral development cooperation. Nevertheless, we see the opportunity of mutually beneficial cooperation between institutions when they act on economically sustainable premises. The cooperation between our educational institutions is already doing well and expanding their operations, because the universities involved are actively driving it.
Kindly tell us about different Socio-economic, cultural and educational and facilities offer by Finland Embassy in Pakistan.
The Finnish Embassy in Pakistan consists of two diplomats, two other sent staff members from Finland, and two Pakistani staff members. Therefore, it doesn’t have the kind of facilities or funds that you are asking for. The Embassy of Finland is a diplomatic mission focusing on diplomacy. It has currently no resources to function as a development cooperation or charity agency.
Please could you highlight the latest immigration policy of Finland, and how Pakistan nationals could benefit from it.
The Finnish immigration policy is based on managed immigration of skilled people capable of sustaining themselves and their families. There are very few jobs available in Finland for unskilled foreigners, and Finland is a very expensive country to live without a solid job. I recommend you check out Workinfinland.com for useful information on employment opportunities in Finland. Studyinfinland.fi is a useful portal for enquiring about the study opportunities in Finland.
Pakistan currently suffers from a sort of emigration obsession, which leaves citizens vulnerable to scammers and corruption schemes. It is very unfortunate that we often learn of Pakistanis who have believed, or even paid money, for false promises related to emigration or jobs overseas. We highly recommend believing only our official channels and following our official instructions, as there is no secret second-track avenue for emigration to Finland. The Embassy does not act as an employment agent and does not select students to any scholarship programme. The Embassy also does not use social media for its official instructions. Anyone promising such services in TikTok or YouTube is likely to be a scammer preying on credulous aspiring immigrants.
Excellency, how could you see the future of Finland in European Union?
Finland is a Member State of the European Union. For Finland, as a European country, the EU is our natural and close reference group. But it is more than that: the European Union is fulfilling a long-sought destiny of our continent by uniting it peacefully. The EU is one of the most successful peace projects so far achieved on the planet. Think about it, an entire continent of such diverse cultures, languages and religious backgrounds that used to be a hotbed of conflict and war for centuries, has managed to build a political union of sovereign states where there is no longer need for border checks and where people can freely live and work wherever they want. It has been an enormous success story – and all that based on conscious confidence building and trust after the traumatic experiences of the two world wars and the defeat of two totalitarian systems that once ravaged our continent.
Please comment on, new geo political and geo strategic scenarios in our region, in Middle East and specially the role of emerging Russia.
Your region, South Asia, could benefit massively from a peace treaty between India and Pakistan, involving a peaceful settlement to Kashmir. The region contains a fifth of the world’s population, and is still undergoing youth boom. So, South Asia’s importance can only be in a rise, but the region continues to suffer from hostilities and major societal challenges that are holding it back from living up to their true weight. As for the Middle East, Finland wishes a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict. That region, too, would massively benefit from putting that conflict in the backburner and moving forward. Besides, many of the regional countries suffer from authoritarian systems that are holding their societies back – the Arab Spring was an attempt by the societies to reclaim their states. Think what a power house the region could become if even just the Arab states could cooperate in a spirit of mutual trust the same way as European Union today. They already share mostly the same literary language and the same majority religion, so the obstacles of cooperation are likely in politics rather than in culture.
Russia has unfortunately chosen a very destructive path – that of imperialism and disrespect for the sovereignty of its neighbours. Like Ukraine, Finland is a direct neighbour of Russia and therefore cannot remain indifferent at Russia’s blatant, illegal and violent aggression against its peaceful and democratic neighbour, Ukraine. At the same time, Russia’s aggression is a problem not only for its smaller neighbours but also for the entire rule-based world order, as what Russia is doing is trying to re-impose an order of military might over the civilized way of handling disputes that the international community has tried to build after the world wars. Though Pakistan is a very big country, it is neighbouring two far bigger giants. Therefore, it should not be in Pakistan’s interests to replace a rule-based world order with the rule of base might claiming the right to redraw spheres of interest and dominion over the territories of neighbouring countries.
How do you look at CPEC, and possibility of Finland to be a part of it?
CPEC is a major regional cooperation programme for China and Pakistan. Finland is not really part of it, but if there are opportunities for Finnish businesses in the projects entailed in the CPEC, they can participate.
Excellency could you please tell us your favorite place and food in Pakistan.
I am a nature lover, so my favourite place is the Margalla Hills National Park, which is a true gem and a treasure, especially as it is so close and easily available for the city dwellers of Islamabad and Rawalpindi. Few people understand the richness and diversity of the flora and fauna found there, right at our doorsteps.
As for food, I am a fan of the cuisine of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa, because it is less spicy than the food of Punjab and Sindh.
Excellency, please assist how media could play role in enhancement of bilateral relations among the two friendly countries.
Media has a key role in shaping people’s opinions and guiding their attention. Therefore, media can enhance our relations simply by reporting truthfully and diversely, by avoiding disinformation, scams, agitation and incitement of hatred. It is a sad fact of the media market that often the bad news is good news, and this leads to the phenomenon that Finns see Pakistan in the media most often when there’s a disaster, terrorist attack or armed conflict. Finland has had more luck in its media coverage in Pakistan, as the few times we enter the media’s attention here tend to be positive – about our education system or Finland being surveyed as the happiest nation in the world. Sometimes it’s good to be a small and innocent country that doesn’t threaten anyone.
Media follow each other over national borders and use other media as their sources, so media-to-media contacts naturally enhance the relations between our societies.
Excellency there are large potential of trade between the two countries, what are the potential areas for mutual joint ventures in the near future.
We see potential in many fields, but it is better to see where business itself sees their opportunities for profit, because that’s where growth will be likely. One such field in Pakistan is its IT industry, though the recent negative development in online freedom might put those prospects in jeopardy. We also see big needs – and therefore opportunities – for climate technologies, clean energy, reforestation, and circular economy. Finnish companies have lots of solid and durable solutions for these challenges if Pakistan is ready to invest in them. Pakistan would greatly benefit for waste-to-energy plants – think of making profitable use of all the waste. In Finland we have basically closed down all the open landfills, as we nowadays use our waste for recycling and energy. One look at the smog in Punjab in winter also suggest that there’s a huge need for cleaner fuels and alternatives to massive crop burning.
What are the prospects of Finland private companies and business investment in our country?
As I replied earlier, the potential for growth is big, because our trade relations are still rather modest. However, the short-time prospects appear to be pending to some improvement in Pakistan’s economic stability and confidence. We are cautiously optimistic in the longer run.
Government / Business community of Pakistan is trying its level best to have more trade and market access in Europe, kindly assist us the way and measures Pakistan should adopt to avail this particular facility, and how Finland could be beneficial to our country.
One advice I keep telling to business people who come to the Embassy for assistance is: do your homework. Finland, like the rest of Europe, is an open economy. If you want to export, you can export. But you need to do your market research, your strategy and your marketing. It is not the job of the Embassy of Finland to export your products for you – and that wouldn’t be possible anyway. In open markets, your success depends on how competitive you are, compared with your competitors.
One way to increase competitiveness in European market is to improve economic, social and environmental sustainability of production, so that the products would be easier to certify for Western markets. Textile and medical industries are already well ahead in this process, as the brands in Europe require high quality standards and ethical conduct.
On the political level, Pakistan would do wisely to implement the obligations they have signed on for the European Union’s GSP+ programme, which provides unilateral trade benefits for Pakistan and other participant countries – but not without conditions, some of which deal with human rights and the treatment of minorities.
Excellency, Pakistan is playing positive role in restoring peace and reconstruction in Afghanistan and is the front state against terrorism, but things are getting bad to worse, what are your suggestions to improve the working relationship and drive against terrorism.
Pakistan is indeed facing a very tough and multi-faceted security challenge on its Afghan front. The situation is not without history where many lessons could be learned. A certain lack of consistency seems to have been a persistent challenge, not just for Pakistan but for the other countries who got involved in Afghanistan as well. However, one needs to be cautious in providing advice to those who are experts on the situation and deal with it every day.
Terrorism is a method while there may be various extremist ideologies employing that method. To fight the method, one would need to turn the calculus in such a way that terrorism doesn’t produce the benefits its users see in it. But while fighting extremist ideology, one also needs to engage in a battle of ideas and narratives, so that harmony and coexistence could prevail over hatred and intolerance.
Finland is recognized as one of the world’s most innovative countries. What is Finland’s strategy for fostering innovation, particularly in emerging technologies? Additionally, does Finland do collaborating with Pakistan to achieve its strategic objectives, and what role do technology and innovation play in its geopolitical relationships?
Finland is famous for its education system. But that’s a long story, and the seeds of Finland’s success were sown more than a hundred years ago and ever since, by laying the foundations for an all-inclusive education of the entire population, and a society based on trust, knowledge and equal opportunities.
One detail worth mentioning is the social status of teachers. It has been assessed as one of the keys to Finland’s education success that teachers traditionally enjoyed a high social esteem. They were the bulwarks of local communities, equal in social status to doctors and lawyers. They were also decently paid and appreciated, making this career an attractive choice for university graduates. A good teacher can have a tremendous impact on young people’s perceptions, including how innovative and independent they will be in their future lives. An authoritarian, corrupt system where loyalty to superiors and family connections dictate one’s opportunities and success is less conducive to innovation.
Finns have been, for a century, among the biggest readers of the world. Libraries are in active use and people read – fact, too, but especially fiction. It has been proven that reading fiction – and especially, reading it from books – enhances imagination, supports a robust level of general knowledge, and encourages innovation. There have been studies showing that the most innovative inventors and developers in the IT industry have been disproportionately active readers of science fiction and fantasy in their youth.
Our country is not very rich on high-value natural resources, such as oil or natural gas. Our “green gold” was forests, and much of the economic wealth was originally based on timber and paper products – while replanting for every tree cut. In the highly competitive global economy, we had to turn to innovation in order to conquer our own little niches. That’s how Finland became a high-tech country.
Pakistani students going to Finland are making the choice of strategy for the future: They go for fields like artificial intelligence, machine learning, smart and self-fixing materials, etc. – that is, future technologies. Eventually, some of them will stay and work in the high-tech companies, or in the universities where cutting-edge research takes place. They are already part of the innovative strategies taking place in international networks.
Turning to another global hotspot, how do you view Israel’s conflict with Palestine, and what has been Europe’s response to the crisis?
Every government of Europe wishes for a peaceful settlement to this conflict and efforts to bring about peace continue, though at the end it does not look promising that even the great powers have seemed unable to weigh in enough influence.
The Arab world is Europe’s immediate neighbourhood and one of the things with most positive impact for the future prospects of that region – and therefore for us – would be a peaceful solution for this toxic conflict that has done much damage to the relations between Western and Muslim countries.
The Finland-Pakistan Business Council has been in existence since 1985. Are you satisfied with its performance so far? If not, what might be the reasons for any dissatisfaction?
The Business Council is active and the Embassy is very satisfied with its contribution to the Finnish-Pakistani business relations. They have been doing tremendously good work for example by organizing the Finland-Pakistan Business Summit annually. That Summit has been instrumental in bringing business people to meet each other, which enhances contacts and confidence, therefore helping to find new opportunities for mutually beneficial business.
Please any message to the people of Pakistan.
Salute for the people of Pakistan from Finland, a friendly country in the far north of Europe with a peaceful nation and plenty of clean nature. For those among us who become involved with the other, there are many hidden treasures to explore in the pursuit for happiness, knowledge, and good life.
